Speaker A: Welcome to sharing my truth with Mel and Suzie. The uncensored version where we bear it.

Speaker B: All we do.

Speaker A: 1234.

Speaker B: Welcome back.

Speaker A: Hello, babe.

Speaker B: Hello, darling. How are you? I'm good. I'm good today.

Speaker A: You're good every day.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yesterday I went to a funeral, so that wasn't so brilliant. How was the shiva? The food was good. Oh, good.

Speaker A: There's always good food at Jewish funerals.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I mean, I don't love obviously it was very sad. Are you okay?

Speaker B: I'm fine. It's very sad, but yeah, it's part of life, really. It's a horrible part of life.

Speaker A: The person lived a good life.

Speaker B: They did. They lived a long life. They had a wonderful marriage and beautiful kids and grandkids and a great career. So they lived a good life. Good for that. That's where it gets well, we'll say.

Speaker A: A little blessing for them and they'll.

Speaker B: Be on their way. Absolutely. Good for them.

Speaker A: Today we're talking about cheating and trust and maybe some open relationships. And how does that work? I know you're a big fan of those, though.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's your subject matter, not mine, but yes, that's the subject of truth, trust, cheating. How do you deal with that?

Speaker A: I know you have a really big problem with cheating.

Speaker B: I have an enormous problem with it, yeah.

Speaker A: Which makes sense. I mean, like, cheating is literally exactly what it is. It's betrayal. Exactly.

Speaker B: Betrayal a core level, and to me, it's about the lying. So you're talking about open relationships. Well, if you've agreed that's what you're doing, there's a whole different thing. There's a whole different wheel set as, like, if that's not where you started from and you're lying, it's a huge problem for me, I think, for most people.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think most people have a huge problem with trust.

Speaker B: Oh, yes.

Speaker A: Like, trust is one of the biggest issues in relationships in general.

Speaker B: It's the crux of most relationships. Like, you cannot succeed if you don't trust people. But most people have been screwed over so many people in their lives. And I don't mean, like, literally. I mean, like, maybe literally, but in so many situations, whether it's in their personal professional, their family, whatever it is, something has happened with an issue of trust. And so they're like, well, so when do I know how to trust people? When do I do it? When do I not do it? When do the little spidey senses go up? When do they not? Right? And I think people don't know where the line is because they've been literally betrayed. Yeah.

Speaker A: So have you personally been cheated on.

Speaker B: You know of, I guess personally no, that I know of, no. But I have been in my current relationship for a very long time, but no, not that I know of.

Speaker A: Yeah, we only know what we know. Obviously, Max is not the kind of person to ever do that, especially because you made that very clear at the start of your relationship.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: But you obviously have some kind of a relationship with cheating if the way you're thinking about this is so fierce.

Speaker B: Yes. My relationship with cheating goes back to my childhood and to my parents and their marriage and how cataclysmically bad it was. I mean, their relationship was an absolute disaster. Was it both of them cheating? No, it was my dad that led to them separating.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: My father had so many affairs oh, my gosh. With all sorts of people in every situation, including when I was a baby, my nannies oh, my God. Paid people that he paid to have sexual pleasure from, like, sex workers. Exactly.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And of course, I don't blame them.

Speaker A: No, of course not.

Speaker B: Just in any form. And my dad left my mum because he was cheating with another woman that he met at a party two doors up. Does that make sense?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Looks like a new house is up. He went to a party. And my mom's not a big social person, so he is a social animal. So he went to this party, met my now stepmother oh, my God. Literally two doors down, and started apparently dancing with her and all the neighbors. Everyone's watching, everyone knows. Going, Everyone knows. And he carried on this affair for quite some time until my mom found a receipt in his car for a fridge. And she's like, hang on.

Speaker A: Pardon?

Speaker B: I don't have this fridge in my house. Whose fridge is this? Yeah, that's how it started.

Speaker A: A fridge?

Speaker B: Yeah. He bought my now stepmother a fridge, which is very romantic. And my mom found a receipt.

Speaker A: A nice fridge.

Speaker B: Exactly. And that's how she found out. Oh, my God. But my father's initial reaction was, no, it's okay. I'll just have you both as a child. Remember hearing that sitting on the stairs? I'll have you both. I love you both. I'm not sure he said love, that's probably a bit strong. But he said, I can have you both, and wisk can work. And my mom said, like, beep, beep, beep, it can. Basically, I like, **** it. Can and they had a massive argument, and then that ensued. My dad sort of coming and going for quite a number of years.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Wow. That's, like, a lot to take in. Did he cheat on he had an affair with this person. Did he cheat on that person as well?

Speaker B: Yeah. No, I know that for a fact. Later down the line. Absolutely. Cheater. Yeah. Serial cheetah. And it's so bad. In my dad's case, that when I met my husband and I introduced my in laws, and at the time, they don't think they were my in laws to my dad and my then so.

Speaker A: Max is still your boyfriend at this point?

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, Max was my boyfriend at this time, yes. And we had gone around to my I think it was around the holidays, actually, and my in laws were in the UK. My mother in law is actually also British, and my stepmother's a Catholic, and so Christmas is a big thing for her, and she had a big thing, blah, blah, blah. My dad is an atheist.

Speaker A: Do you like your stepmom? I guess.

Speaker B: No, it's a weird relationship. She is Cruella de Ville. Like, actually, if you wanted to pet, she's Irish, so she doesn't have anymore. She has this sort of red hair because she looks very Celtic, but she's the most unnurturing motherly person you could possibly ever encounter in your entire life. And I have many stories about her, but oh, no, that's for another podcast.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: But at this festive get together, it was just before Christmas, and my soon to be or like, in laws were at the party, and my inlaws are very sociable. And my father, who'd met now, I'm pretty sure actually he'd met my inlaws before, and he made a pass at my mother in law. Oh, my God, he touched her ***. And my mother in law, I don't know what she's very adept in situation. So she was able to sort of kind of navigate the situation. It took her quite a few years to tell me because she was so embarrassed. I think she was worried I'd be upset. I was like, well, yeah. I mean, for her, it's absolutely hideous and it's embarrassing. Well, it's gross. It's revolting, and it's predatory, and it's all those kind of things. And it's not exactly fun that that's your father, but it's something I've always been really aware of, the way you kind of hold yourself, the way you are with other people. I mean, in a context where you're amorous or sexual or whatever, like being really careful about it. But yeah, it's horrible. So I've had that. I guess it is a sort of shadow a thing over me. And I have a big issue with cheating. Not that I think every partner I've ever been with a cheating. It's just I don't want to be with somebody who's cheating. Now, that means that I am going into a relationship saying, I'm only having a relationship with you, and if you have a relationship with somebody else, that's not what we've agreed on, which is the opposite of an open relationship. I don't want to have the relationship anymore. I think an overrelationship is completely different because you've agreed that's what you're doing. You've agreed that you're having an open relationship and that you have some parameters, ie. You tell each other about the person or whatever it is, the parameters you set up, that you both have to follow those rules. Obviously, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you going into a relationship, you're trusting the person, and they cheat on you. I just cannot deal with that. And I've made that very clear in any relationship I've ever had. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that's an important thing to make clear to the people that you're dating, because a lot of people do have just very different ideas about what it is to be betrayed and cheated on and all these things. Like, I'm I'm wondering if, if your mum decided to, let's say, cheat on your dad, would he feel the same of like, this is cheating, I can't believe you betrayed me like this.

Speaker B: That's a very good question.

Speaker A: Obviously, I don't know if she did or not, but, like, I don't know.

Speaker B: My mom didn't and I mean, unfortunately, my parents told me way too much about their relationship at a very young age, but one of their issues was sex, and they weren't having sex, and my father sought that elsewhere or in the quantity that he obviously needed it. And I don't know why I laugh there because it's like, well, what else do you do? But no, my mom wasn't cheating, and in fact, my mother wasn't kind of experimenting relationships until later on, and that's for another podcast, my mother and her Toy boys. Oh, jeez. Which is the whole subject in itself. I mean, you have to laugh.

Speaker A: Of course you do. I mean, there's one thing to have to be a mature adult who has these separate relationships of I eat a toy boy or something. And there's another thing of literally being a mother and being a good parent and bringing your toy boys into that. So anyways, that is for another day. That's really bad. But yeah, I mean, that's very interesting with your dad and the fact that he was very like, oh, no, I can have you both that was his idea about it without actually discussing it with either of them, I'm assuming.

Speaker B: No, of course not.

Speaker A: It wasn't a discussion. It was like, I am doing this, this is going to work and it's going to be fine.

Speaker B: This is what I want, this is what I need, and this is what you're going to do. I can remember him saying it, but I can only assume it didn't even cross his mind. You're going to be like, no thanks. And why he would think it was okay, I don't know. I think maybe he thought my mother wasn't working. My mother was a stay at home mum at that point. She had been working at that point, she was looking after me. I was sort of ten or eleven, but I can only assume he just thought, well, she's going to have to accept it because what's she going to do?

Speaker A: Well, yeah, and I mean, like, stop me if this is too much as well, but, like, maybe was this is there a possibility that, like, he was a narcissist or like 100 men?

Speaker B: It's not possibility.

Speaker A: Like, there's traits that are within him.

Speaker B: Yeah, narcissist, sociopath, I mean, all of the above.

Speaker A: Well, this is just what it's sounding like, 100% right. Okay.

Speaker B: I mean, you can ask me. I don't have I may sound as if I'm being a bit sort of flippant. I'm not. I've got to a point many, many years later where I really have processed this. These are things I didn't talk about to people for years and years and years. And then now it is very easy for me to talk about because I am in a loving relationship. I've been married for 21 plus years. I have two kids. I've been around the block.

Speaker A: You've gone to little therapy, too.

Speaker B: I've gone to therapy. I really have truly processed I'm not telling you I would want this for anybody. And if anybody does have a situation where they sort of have a messed up, particularly parental whatever the parents are doing in their relationship with other people, it's very, very difficult to navigate. But it does take a long time for you to realize it doesn't have to become part of you or the way you operate. Now, having said that, like we've talked about the cheating thing, I have an issue with that. I have an issue with cheating on a mental and a physical level. The physical thing just completely creeps me out. And the mental thing is betrayal. But I know that I have that issue, and I know where it comes from. I truly know that if I have a relationship, particularly the relationship I have now, my long standing marriage, that is, with one person, that connection is with that person. It's a total trust thing with him. There is nobody else. I don't want anybody else in that. And I know that. And that may be I don't know, some people may think, well, that's naive, or that's something rather but I know.

Speaker A: That'S the relationship that you're in and it works for you guys.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: It's amazing.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But I don't in any way judge anybody else that wants something different or for whatever reason has to or wants to find something different. But that's what I'm saying. From my personal point of view, this is what works for me. This works very well for me, and that's what I want. Yeah, but I'm not telling her they aren't anybody else to live their life in any particular way, because that doesn't work. Yeah.

Speaker A: Is it? And I'm assuming it is. But obviously there's the physical cheating of, like, having sex or kissing someone else.

Speaker B: The actual fluid, the whole adjustment, it's the mixing of fluids with someone else into my fluids.

Speaker A: Well, so then that comes to my other question, which is is sexing cheating?

Speaker B: Right. Okay.

Speaker A: But obviously him watching **** would not be nice. But if he were to pay for someone's only fans, would that be?

Speaker B: Well, that's a good question. That is a very good question. There are so many lines, I think, that that is a bit different. I think really it kind of depends how much you do it in secret. If you're doing something and you're telling me that's a whole different thing, then I'm pretty easygoing. It's a communication 100%. If you tell me if you're suddenly I come home and find whatever and you're surprised to something, I sort of say that like it's some kind of movie or whatever, but a situation suddenly arises and it completely throws you sideways because you don't know that portrayal on a level. If you know about something, then it's fine. I mean, it's interesting because I know a situation a couple of years ago where a mutual friend of mine and my husband was in a relationship with a woman and he was sort of communicating with another woman and he thought that was completely fine, right? We're like, does your girlfriend know? And he's like, no. Well, that's kind of cheating. I mean, it's not obviously really hard, it's obviously not physical cheating and you're not having a relationship, but it's the intention, the intent, the thought is there you want to do it. And the point is, if your girlfriend found those texts, what would she do? Or would she go apeshit? Well, that sort of answers your question, doesn't it, really? If you are doing something in secret without telling the truth, that goes back to the whole thing about the open relationships. If you set the parameters and you've been ominous, that's completely different. Yeah, I do know the open relationship thing, or even the swinging thing, which obviously is different. And I know people who've gone into these things with the grades of intentions. And the problem is often with those things, in my experience from people I know that have entered into those kind of relationships is one person wants it more than the other. One person is going along with the other to keep the other happy, which actually tends to happen with a lot of kind of fetishes or any kind of something, let's say, that's veering against the beige, if you know what I mean. One person wants it more than the other and one person, same as threesomes, wants to keep the other person happy. And that's, for me, where the problems arise. So particularly something like swinging, I think there are probably statistics about the instances of people go in and they sort of enjoy it and then they actually end up meeting another partner and blowing up their life. And that's the problem. Even like things like threesomes, nobody can know how they're going to feel. They like the idea. Obviously they fantasize about the idea, but then it happens. Something obviously changes in the dynamic and then you don't know how to deal with the change in the dynamic. Yeah, and I think a lot of people feel very strangely about things like that. Often it's not the person who thought they'd feel strange. I remember I saw this show on British TV, which I'm trying to remember.

Speaker A: British?

Speaker B: Yeah. And we have all these crazy shows because we don't have the same kind of parameters, and it's like a sexual it's called something about trying what it's called? But anyway, these couples go into the house and it's whether they're trying to figure something out, whether they want a threesome or whatever. And there was one instance, and this is on primetime television, everyone, I'm obsessed. We don't have this at 03:00 in the morning. We have all sorts of weird things on TV. And this couple wanted to have a three, and they agreed on it. And then the strange thing was, is that when they were in the room with the third person that they'd sort of chosen, obviously that was all created by the TV show. The person who thought they wanted the threesome was like, oh no, I can't deal with this. I can't get into this. I can't. It's quite interesting. And then it just didn't work. And they all had to sort of say, no, it's not working. So it's like anything but I mean, at least in that situation, they talked about it. They were honest about it. In fact, if they've done it on television, they've gone through a process. They're not hiding things. To me, the cheating and the trusting is about the secrecy, about the not talking, not saying, what can the thing be that's so dark and shameful and whatever. And you think about it, whatever it is, whether it's the fact that you want we keep talking about threesomes. I do keep talking about threesomes. Or you have some kind of fetish, or you have an interest in open relationships or whatever it is, the longer you keep that under wraps, if you like, the longer you don't talk about it, the bigger the secret becomes. 100%, the harder it is. And so I think that ultimately, in those situations, you probably will try and seek something and then whether that's texting somebody or a flirtation or whatever it is, and then the whole thing just blows up, and then it's a mess. And that's my problem. My problem is deceit. Deceit is the biggest word. Deceit and lying. And I can't bear it, and I won't stand for it. I would much prefer to be not in a relationship than have I wouldn't deal with lies. I wouldn't live like that. I just wouldn't do it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's so hard because I'm a person who I don't think I'd mind an open relationship.

Speaker B: I've never had one that would be if you decide you would know you were having it, you wouldn't be like, oh, it's Monday, Tuesday, we're doing that. You wouldn't just do it without telling the boy.

Speaker A: So here's my thing, right? So I am in a relationship right now with my lovely boyfriend, who is literally one of the most monogamous people that I know, and especially for being a very attractive man, in my eyes, the fact that he doesn't want or doesn't have a need to sleep or even touch or whatever with another woman. I'm like, why not? You know what I mean? So I'm bisexual. And so we had this rule of, like excuse me. We had this rule of me being able to make out with other girls if I'm out and if I feel like it just to kind of hold the need there. And it's fine. It worked for us, but I was like, it's okay if you make out with the women. I actually am fine with that. I don't mind that at all. Like, if you if you're like, maybe I want to if you're out and about, like, we don't really go to the clubs or anything like that anymore, but, like, I'm like, if you're out and you see a girl and you think she's cute and you guys talk and it's fine, and you make out, that's not a big deal to me. But I don't think he ever actually.

Speaker B: He doesn't want to.

Speaker A: He didn't want to do it, and.

Speaker B: I completely understand that. Yes, but I was making out snogging, right?

Speaker A: Snogging, yes. I love a snog. I'm a very touchy feely, lovey dovey person with everyone I know. Like, my friends, if I meet a new person, I'm hugging them. I'm a handshake person in a professional setting. But if it's like it's your friend of a friend or whatever it is you're wound.

Speaker B: I'm very wound. Yeah.

Speaker A: I really try to kind of put that energy out there, and with that, I think, comes a more sexual energy as well. And putting that out there, I'm like, it's just hard to stop it. And so we had this thing, and then it did turn out like I did kind of cross the line, and I did make out with a guy, and so that kind of happened, and then he swung snogged another guy. And it wasn't obviously a good situation, and I did have to own up to it in a situation. And obviously he was upset about it. And it's so hard for me because I'm like, I don't think I would hate an open relationship, and it's not because I don't love him. I think it's because if I didn't love him, I wouldn't be in this relationship. But it's like, I'm very fluid. I don't think I have these hang ups about, like, I need this one person, and they need to have all of my tickets, you know what I mean? And I find it's okay if you need that extra little once in a while here and there. And not saying about sex, but just.

Speaker B: Saying about no, I understand that.

Speaker A: And it's just so hard for me because I'm like, I love him so much and he's such a good person and I don't want to date anyone else. But there's just, like, this other pole of something.

Speaker B: But you're able to for you, in a sense, sex is sex. It's not totally intermeshed with love. Yeah.

Speaker A: And not even saying that I would have sex with another guy because I don't think I want that either.

Speaker B: It's just the it's the free song. It's the free song of a little flirting.

Speaker A: God, I love the way you say that. Yeah, that's all it is.

Speaker B: Because I say in France, free song, sexy mal.

Speaker A: But yeah. So it's just that little bit of freedom, a little fun. That who literally I am at my core, who I believe I am, who I like to be. It's so hard for me to not do that anymore.

Speaker B: So when this happened with this guy so your agreement was that you would only snog a girls? Yes. And you snogged a boy.

Speaker A: Snogged a boy.

Speaker B: Isn't that interesting, though? What was his answer for why snogging a boy? Because he's a boy.

Speaker A: Because he's a boy. Because he's like, I want to be the only boy.

Speaker B: If you want to snog a girl, I can't give you the girl bit. Yeah.

Speaker A: And if you need to do that, that's fine.

Speaker B: Got it.

Speaker A: But he's just such a I can't wrap my head around the monogamy and I'm not saying I'm going to do that again.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's just very hard. Like, you do it once, you do have that betrayal. And I've literally regretted it for like the entire time because it's just like I never ever want to hurt him like that again. But it's so of course it's so hard to give up that small apart of you. And it's super selfish too. I don't know why I feel this need of wanting to do it.

Speaker B: I don't know if it's selfish. It does all go back to knowing who you are and what you want now. I don't know. Is it part of the relationship with him? It could be many I'm not a psychologist. I don't know. For me personally, I totally understand Jeff's point completely. Deal. Because that's what I want. I'm not interested. I'm just not interested because for me, it's all wrapped up in the same thing. And I recognize that goes back to my past and we're talking about trust issues and I think trust is at the core and I have to have complete trust and it sounds selfish as well. So I have to know that I am with this person completely. But I think it's part of who you are. It's part of what you want. I think perhaps in your case, because you are bisexual, there's another element there. I don't know. What do most people I guess everyone has to figure out if they are in a relationship where they're bisexual and they're in a heterosexual relationship and they fill, obviously, the pole of the other side or whatever, however you want to turn that, what do they do? And I guess each individual relationship has to figure out how they deal with it and how they can do it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, with like the queer community, I think more people are just more open to different experiences and different people and like, the love of more people than just one. And so that's where I find myself really comfortable. It's just like that way of, like.

Speaker B: I understand that I don't live it. I don't understand it in the sense that's not me, but I do understand. And I'm not sure if it's generational also because, like, talking to you and a couple of other people we know that are younger that we've talked to yeah. In the sort of making of this podcast, like, you get a real sense that I think it's a good thing that something has changed. And the disposition about sex, I think that sex is maybe in our generation, we're too wrapped up in sort of all these different putting everything into all these boxes. Whereas I just think that maybe well, you're a millennial. I don't know. It's a millennial thing. I don't know. It could be more like sex is just sex. It's an expression of something, but it's not like, oh my God, the whole world is going to fall apart because today I had sex with the woman, and tomorrow I had sex with a man. And then on Thursday I've decided anyone had sex with women or whatever the hell it is, does it actually matter? No. No, it doesn't matter at all. If that's the way you want to live your life and you're not hurting anyone, that's the problem. I mean, I would say that Jeff is being incredibly open minded and high, very grown up, very mature, to recognize that he loves you so much that he knows you need something. And to say that's fine. And to open that door is amazing, quite frankly. But sure, that's a difficult door. That's what I was talking to you. You open these doors and something goes wrong. So the question really is if you need to open the door, you open the door. If you don't open the door, what happens if you don't? Is it more dangerous if you go do it?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And I don't know the answer to that.

Speaker A: I don't know the answer to that either, because it's something that I didn't want to give up, because I was like, yes, I want this relationship with you, but if you don't want me for what I'm bringing and who I am personally, then this isn't going to work in the first place. So I think it is more dangerous to not open that door. It's like if you're actually closeted gay person and then you marry a straight person, you're going to have an unhappy life.

Speaker B: Of course.

Speaker A: And I'm not saying this is really the same thing, but it's in that same realm of you have to truly, fully be yourself and be honest with who you are to be honest with that other person.

Speaker B: I agree. And if he's having a relationship with you, he knows you and. If he doesn't know that about you? Well, he doesn't really know you, does he? Exactly. But I guess it's something that you have to well within the relationship figure out. Well, I guess you have figured out what the line is.

Speaker A: I mean, it's still a learning thing with us and I think about it all the time. I'm like, is this relationship feasible? Because I don't know if he's actually going to be okay with this. And I've brought up a threesome multiple times being like we could bring a girl in that would be absolutely okay with me, you know, like and he doesn't even want that even in that sense. So it is really hard because it's like I don't know where he really wants it to go or if he's okay with it. I think he is. Like we talked about the beginning of this episode. It's like he's good with going along with it because it's for me.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I don't want that. I'd rather him want it too. Exactly. So that's obviously what you need to have an actual open relationship. Right. You cannot just be doing this for the one person.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Everyone's going to be unhappy.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what I said to you at the beginning. I've seen this time and time again. It's fine if that's what you want, that's what you want. But if the other person doesn't want that, it's a problem and it doesn't matter what it is if it's sadomasochism. You've got to both want to be a part of this. And of course that does bring up that probably maybe initially one person's more into something than the other and so on. But there has to be it's like a horrible sort of marketing term but sort of buy in from both people. It's true though. Yes. And I don't know what the answer is. I only know the way I feel. And we've had many discussions, my husband and I, about this, about the way I feel. He knows the way I feel. I made it very, very clear at the beginning. I just made it very clear. I cannot function if you if it sounds a bit nasty, the circle of trust is broken if you like. I just won't be able to it's.

Speaker A: Hard to repair it again because you can't.

Speaker B: Very difficult. Yeah, very difficult. That does bring the other thing of I have been asked this question by actually somebody asked me a few weeks ago about this, or just a little bit more than a few weeks ago about whether I trusted my husband. And I was actually quite shocked to be asked the question because it never even occurred to me. It never even occurred to me that what do you mean? Of course I trust him, but that's part of my part of my relationship. So I understand that everyone has a different kind of relationship and the trust is different.

Speaker A: I mean, that says more about the person asking you than it does about you and your relationship. Right. That's like them even asking that question is like they obviously do not trust their partner or they're worried about that.

Speaker B: I don't know. I just found it an old question. It's never, ever crossed my mind. Never crossed my mind. But I think because and again, people may say that's naive or whatever it is, but I think we talk an awful lot, Max and I. We talk all the time, and we've had a relationship of starting to talk and then keep talking, keep having conversations, keep talking about the bits and essentially the bits that are uncomfortable, the stuff that people don't want to talk about. And that's the struggle most people have, is how do you talk like you're talking about the difficult bits about this betrayal, I guess, on your side. Is it a betrayal? Do you feel it's a betrayal of Jeff, what you did? No, no. But he does.

Speaker A: In the betrayal of a sense of like, he is obviously not okay with it. But I don't think it's a big deal personally that's also, like, a lot of people won't agree with that. Right. Because it is, as you like to.

Speaker B: Call it, swapping fluids. Swapping fluids.

Speaker A: But, yeah, it's so hard because I don't think sharing your body with someone.

Speaker B: Is a big deal.

Speaker A: Is the biggest deal.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: I think, obviously, if I were to fall in love with someone else emotionally, that's a bigger deal. The emotional part of cheating is a much bigger deal. If you were to fall in love with someone else and didn't tell me about it and just kept on doing, maybe just talking to them as friends, I would be like, oh, yeah, you're just talking to your friend, and he didn't actually tell you?

Speaker B: What?

Speaker A: I mean, that's more cheating for me than the physical part of it.

Speaker B: Right, okay. Yeah. I mean, I do understand that because I do think also there is this sort of urban myth of it. Like you see it in movies and stuff like that, where it's often the husband who cheats, and then the woman just says, Get out.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And I have been asked that because people from friends was people have known what my dad's like. If that happened to you, would you go? And I said yes, I probably would. But I don't actually think that's necessarily that's not a half fast rule, because I think exactly what you're saying, that there are lots of different reasons why people cheat. Sometimes it is purely physical, and that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it's not incredibly painful for the person who's been cheated on. But there could be a plethora of reasons. Sometimes your situations arise and people make bad decisions. And if you are the partner of let's say it's a man and a woman, the man's cheated and the woman fans out. Or the man tells a woman and all her friends and this is what I'm talking about, sort of seeing in movies and stuff, all her friends would say, no, you have to leave him, he's a cheat. Blah, blah, blah. I think that's wrong. I think you need to let that woman or that man or whomever it is, whoever you are in a relationship, make that decision themselves. Because they have to live with that decision. And they need to be 100% comfortable that it is completely possible that they're like, okay, they've had a situation where they've cheated physically, and we talked about it, we've explained it, I'm not happy with it, but we can move on. And that is for that couple to make that choice. Absolutely. Not for everyone to chip in. But that's not what happens. Everyone gets involved. And that is definitely not what should happen. Because in any couple, like you're talking about how you feel and stuff, it's your decision. And actually going back to something you said about you don't think it's a big deal, he was saying about sharing my body. I think that's where the crux of the thing lies. It's not a big deal for you. It is for me, with the one person. So it's about what is important for you. What do you care about? What do you want? And that's about everything, isn't it? But being truthful, if you are truthful with somebody and you tell them, this is who I am. This is what I need, this is the way I need to live, whether it's my side of the spectrum, if you like, or yours, because they are kind of opposed, then that's a good thing. You've been truthful. You haven't hidden it from Jeff and I haven't hidden it. I was very honest. The problems and I'm not saying it's not problematic, as you've shared with us, but I think the problems can be when people are living this kind of secret life. Like you're saying they have this friend that they're texting or they're smuggling or whatever they're doing. Yeah.

Speaker A: They're just like falling in love with them. And then emotionally it's like, where did this come from?

Speaker B: Absolutely. All this interest in whatever it is that they think they're too scared to tell their partner. They think, oh God, if they find out that I'm into whatever I'm into, and you do it in secret. I mean, it's a Gillian times worse if you sort of come home one day and find your partner doing whatever they're doing and you think, what the hell is going on? I didn't know you were into that. Whereas if you were honest and you talked about it, it is your business as a couple, then it would be a lot better. But relationships aren't easy, Susie, whatever way you dice it. But trust is at the core, absolutely trust. You have got to be honest. You've got to tell people what you want, you've got to communicate it.

Speaker A: And I mean, it's just incredible how strong my boyfriend is and how confident he is in our relationship and in himself and the fact that he trusts me enough to make these decisions for myself and for us. And it's incredible. I respect him so much. The fact that he respects me so much in the way of life, that's huge.

Speaker B: It's okay.

Speaker A: Just be yourself. Just we're going to figure it out together.

Speaker B: I think it's a huge amount about him. I know. And I would say there aren't too many walking around like that.

Speaker A: I know. I'm extremely lucky, and I realize that as well.

Speaker B: To find somebody who's like, okay, that's part of who you are or whatever, that's enormous. Yeah. That's huge.

Speaker A: I know. I literally am so grateful for having someone in my life who's literally just okay with me being open about it.

Speaker B: Not judging you.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Not judging you and accepting you and also accepting that you made a mistake. Yeah. Did you tell him that this had happened? Yeah. Before he didn't find out?

Speaker A: Well, we had kind of brought up the whole situation of this going on because it was covered, and then we were kind of coming back into going out and stuff like that, and then I brought it up, and it was obviously not a happy conversation after that.

Speaker B: And it happened sometime before.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So it's just a very hard situation because you have to be honest with yourself, like we were saying, and that's probably the most difficult thing to do is really just being honest with yourself, what you want and how you can go about it, and not trying not to hurt people in the process.

Speaker B: Yeah. 100%. It's very difficult.

Speaker A: You should really weigh your outcomes and weigh your pros and cons. You can't have it all you can't, which is unfortunate. Like, you can really just do the best you can and yeah, try not to hurt anyone you love with it, definitely.

Speaker B: Because it will hurt you. Exactly.

Speaker A: It's also going to hurt you in the end.

Speaker B: Not a nice thing. Yeah. But we're talking about trust, we're talking about cheating, we're talking about truth. It is kind of core to pretty much most things in life, is to be honest about what you want, where you're going. And I think part of the problem, though, is also some of us don't actually know, and we're trying to figure it out, and that's where the problem lies. We're like, is this how do I want this just now? Do I want this forever, this week? And you're a human being. I mean, that's the thing. You're a human being. You're not some sort of logical machine exactly. Where you can predict what's going to happen and how you're going to think next week or next, whatever. Exactly.

Speaker A: It's like, do you take a break from the relationship to figure out what's going on, but then you can't ask that person to take that break with you and then have them be waiting for you at the end.

Speaker B: The world doesn't work like that.

Speaker A: Exactly. So you have to kind of make these decisions for yourself, but you can't expect anyone else to kind of be supportive of you in the decisions you're making.

Speaker B: It's like cheating if somebody loves somebody but they do find other people attractive. Not acting on that is an act of love to not hurt the person. Right. So you have to make that choice. You have to make that choice. But look, God love relationships ******* hard. It's very difficult.

Speaker A: And everything looks great from the outside too.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. Everyone thinks, oh, it's all easy. Even in my case, I would honestly say I'm happily married, I have a very strong relationship. But has it been a straight line? Don't be ridiculous. Nothing in life is a straight line. And wherever you think you want to be in life, you think, okay, I'm at A, I want to get to be well, the next step probably won't be B, it'll be D. Life goes in these weird sort of ups and curves. It doesn't go in a straight line. And things change all the time. And I think you have to be good at change. I'm somebody's quite good with change. Some people fear it, but relationships are difficult. You have to keep going and you have to keep wanting it together. Yeah.

Speaker A: And you've been I mean, you've been with your husband for 25 years. I've been with my boyfriend for seven.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So obviously that's a huge difference. But in just the way of does it get easier?

Speaker B: Good question. It does not get easier.

Speaker A: I don't know. I think it's like our intimacy has gotten amazing and I can only hope that it's going to get better and better. But I don't know. I feel like things change so often. Maybe you make better decisions as a whole.

Speaker B: Things do change. I think I've said this before. Life does get in the way. It's very difficult to juggle all the stuff you have to do in 24 hours and still sort of be this super amazing sex goddess stroke, amazing sex, whatever it is. My entire actually pretty hard to do because also you might be feeling it on Monday at 04:00 p.m.. But you're at work, you know what I mean? Or you might be feeling like, yeah, I'm in the mood on whatever and nothing else. The stars are not aligned because that's life. You're working, you have kids, you've got a family dinner even. Whatever you're doing, it's very difficult. I mean, you have to make it work. You really do. You can't keep finding excuses in either your behavior or what's going on. You have to just make it work. You have to just push the needle as well.

Speaker A: If it's worth it and you're happy.

Speaker B: And it can't always be exactly the way you want it to happen.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Compromise.

Speaker B: Compromise. Exactly. Goes back to one of my important tenants. Love a successful relationship.

Speaker A: Well, I just want to end this being like, I love my boyfriend. I know you love your husband. And hopefully not. Hopefully we're going to definitely just keep going. Hopefully they just love us for us.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But also to let people know that nobody's, whatever rubbish people are telling you that, oh, my land is fantastic Instagram worthy and that it's all perfect and I'm having this amazing life and everything in every single millisecond of the day is absolutely perfect, is a big pile of bullshit. And that's what we're trying to say, that you are a human being and some things are not perfect and shiny and fit into all the right boxes. Absolutely. And we're not like that as people. So why we expect our life to be, I don't know, but we all seem to struggle with it all the time. So I just feel a little bit by sharing what my truths and experiences that maybe people will say, okay, it's okay to not be perfect. It's okay for everything not to be happening in exactly the right moment or with the right this sort of picture perfect, Instagram worthy life is not actually attainable. Well, I don't think it is.

Speaker A: No, I agree. And I think just be kind to yourself 100% and to the people.

Speaker B: Break. Yeah.

Speaker A: It's ******* tough being a person.

Speaker B: It is.

Speaker A: World that we live in.

Speaker B: It is.

Speaker A: With all these stresses and people pressuring you to do things that maybe you don't want to do.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Be who you don't want to actually be.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Because life has to carry on. You have to pay the bills. Trust yourself. Trust yourself. Exactly. Trust yourself.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: Get to the core. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, darling, love. This has been an amazing other chat.

Speaker B: It has, my darling. And we have to go for now, but we will be back with more with more just with more, with more. Bye, babe. All right. Bye, darling. Bye, guys. Thanks so much for listening. Please rate and review this podcast and follow us on social at Sharing My Truth Pod and leave us a voicemail on our website sharingmytruthcom to share your stories and experiences with us. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Speaker A: Bye. Three, two, one.